Beyond the Pit: Building Workplaces You Don’t Dread Showing Up To

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Dr. Nashay Lowe speaks with Dr. Darrin Theriault, a military veteran and leadership consultant, about the profound impact of leadership on individuals and organizations. They explore the emotional toll of toxic workplaces, the importance of trauma-informed leadership, and the necessity of creating healthier work cultures. Darrin shares his personal journey from the military to academia and consulting, emphasizing the need for leaders to connect with their teams on a personal level. The discussion also delves into the challenges of work-life balance, the distinction between power and control, and the significance of integrity in building a brand.

Key Takeaways

• Leadership can either break or build people.
• Toxic leadership creates a pit in employees' stomachs.
• Emotional labor is draining and often unrecognized.
• Power is often confused with control in leadership.
• People and relationships are crucial in leadership.
• No employee should go to work with a pit in their stomach.
• Building a consulting business requires self-reflection.
• Integrity is essential in branding and leadership.
• Leaders must connect with their teams personally.
• The law of unintended consequences affects decision-making.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Leadership and Personal Journey
• 2:50 The Impact of Toxic Leadership
• 7:04 Emotional Labor and Work-Life Balance
• 9:37 Power vs. Control in Leadership
• 11:59 The Importance of People in Leadership
• 14:29 Building a Consulting Business
• 21:55 Branding and Integrity in Leadership

Transcript

Dr. Shay: 0:02

Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn tension into transformation through clarity, connection, and consistency. I'm your host, Dr. Nashay Lowe, and this is a space where we explore what's really underneath the moments that challenge us and how they can lead to something more honest, more human, and more whole. So let's get into it. In this candid and energizing conversation, I sit down with Darrin Theriault, a military veteran, professor, and emerging leadership consultant who shares the moment that sparked his mission, the day he realized leadership could either break or build people. Together, we're going to sit down and unpack the emotional cost of toxic workplaces, how trauma-informed leadership begins with presence, and why purpose-driven professionals are often the ones called to create the work cultures that they never had. From military ranks to faculty offices to the early days of building a consulting business, this episode offers powerful reminders that integrity is scalable, that leadership is relational, and that healing culture starts from within. So Darrin, can you please introduce yourself? Let everyone know who you are and what you do.

Darrin: 1:25

Sure. I'm Darrin Theriault. I took a really incredible path, I would say, to get to where I am. Coming through high school, I was just focused on athletics and I just did the bare minimum to get by. And then I kind of figured if I'm going to have any kind of life, I need a career. So I decided to join the Army after failing out of college twice because I was just focused on sports. The Army was a watershed moment for me. He let me know that with purpose and motivation and focus, I could achieve bigger and better things. And so I had great leadership. When I was an enlisted soldier, they saw potential in me, leadership potential in me. They encouraged me to compete for an Army ROTC scholarship, which thankfully I earned. And then I went back to college. I was focused like a laser beam. I was in ROTC. I got commissioned as a second lieutenant, and then I had a nice Army career that I'm very proud of, 23 years. We're going to talk more about that specifically because that's what triggered some of these thoughts I have about leadership. And then I got into higher ed when I retired, and I really wanted to have the biggest impact that I possibly could on students and on the community, so I decided to pursue a terminal degree. I earned a PhD from Kennesaw State University. And now I'm a professor, as you've already said. And I've got this idea that collectively we can make the workplace a healthier place for people to go and do their jobs. Thank

Dr. Shay: 2:52

you for sharing your background. So talk to me a little bit about that sort of hit in your stomach feeling and why that moment shaped your leadership path a little?

Darrin: 3:01

Sure. During my introduction, you know, I mentioned that I started as an enlisted soldier and then I became an officer. And up until this point, like my entire Army journey was amazing. Really, I had just positive leaders for the most part. And then, but the whole time that you're an Army ROTC, or if you're a cadet West Point, or if you're going through OCS, the ways that you can become a commissioned officer, You cannot wait to get to your first duty station and to become a platoon leader. It's the best job you're ever going to have. It's the closest you're ever going to be to soldiers. And I couldn't wait. I found out that I was going to Fort Riley, Kansas, 1st Battalion, 34th Armor Regiment, the Centurions. And I could not have been more disappointed. I was so excited. I was so eager to get to my platoon. And as it turns out, my leader, my company commander was not a very positive leader. He's a toxic, abusive leader. And although I love the experience of being with my soldiers in the platoon, I would often drive to work with the pit in my stomach because I had no idea how the company commander was going to treat us that day.

Dr. Shay: 4:13

So what was that turning point for you where you were like, I can't continue with this feeling?

Darrin: 4:20

So there were a few things that kept me positive. There were a few things that kept me motivated. Thankfully, I was very good friends with the two other platoon leaders within that organization. And we collectively said, you know what, no matter how bad this guy gets, we will not let it ruin our experience. We are going to be the best platoon leaders that we can be. We are going to be as positive as we can be with our soldiers, with our platoon sergeants. And we are going to work together to And, you know, this guy could be the worst. And oftentimes we thought he was the worst leader in the army. And although it wasn't the best experience, we didn't let it completely demoralize us.

Dr. Shay: 4:58

It's such an interesting thing to think about because I think when people are surrounded by that type of leadership, it's sort of just internalized as this is just how it is. And you accept that and either end up being the same way. What made it different for you? What made you just say that there's another way to do this?

Darrin: 5:15

So. There were times when I was really close to just calling it quits, like just doing my bare four-year or five-year service obligation because the Army paid for me to go to school. So I knew I had to at least do three or four years, maybe five years. But the cool thing about the Army is that, well, it can be a good thing and it can be a negative thing sometimes, is that you rarely have the same leader for more than 12 to 18 months. Either you're going somewhere else or your leader is going somewhere else. So it's this constant rotation of leadership. And ironically, just whatever the width of a cinder block is, because all the walls in the company headquarters back there were just cinder block. It was an old building. And just on the other side of the cinderblock wall from my company, I was in Bravo Company, 134 Armor, and Charlie Company, C Company, right on the other side of this wall, had one of the most amazing, positive, dynamic leaders you could ever imagine. And when I got reassigned, I had finished my time as a platoon leader. They said, hey, congratulations, you did a pretty good job. Now we're going to make you the executive officer for Charlie Company. And when I reported it just on the other side of that cinder block wall, it changed. Like the sun was shining, the unicorns were flying through the air. I mean, birds were chirping. It went from black and white to color TV for, you know, high def. Just like that, because of the leadership climate, because of the command climate. It makes a big difference. So when I hear people tell their stories, and it's not onesie twosie, it's almost everybody who I talk to, Almost everybody. Thankfully, there's some folks out there who love their job. They're in a very positive workspace. But I would say the majority are not really digging going to work. They have a pit in their stomach. So I know the difference that leadership can make. And I want to work with leaders. I want to work with team members. I want to work with organizations to help. Let's bring up the climate level of the place where people work. It's possible.

Dr. Shay: 7:09

Right. Yeah. It's just fascinating. The workplace really isn't separate from real life, right? You spend so much time there. We spend our highest energy hours at work. And so when that space is as functional, I mean, it doesn't just affect productivity. It reshapes your self-worth, your health, your identity. Getting a little personal here, but can you share anything about how you... created either boundaries between your work life and home life during that sort of toxic period? Or just how do you had to learn to create balance between the two just to survive it while you were there?

Darrin: 7:46

Yeah, thankfully, I had a great family. You know, my kids were awesome. I love being a dad. And that was my escape, quite honestly, like I was able to, to just get away. So like when I was And I actually lived on the post, which is not uncommon. A lot of folks who have families, they live on the same installation where they work, where their units are. But this drive down Custer Hill from my headquarters down to the housing unit that I was living in, it was my getaway. And I refused to just kind of dwell on some of these things and let it ruin my family time and my family space. So I really didn't get the pit until I was driving in the next day. But not everybody has that luxury. In fact, when I talk to people, not only is work part of life, but that can be a friction point in relationships because it affects some people to the point so much that they can't stop talking about it. Like when they get home and they're with their spouse or they're with their friend or they're with their partner, and all they can do is vent because they had such a terrible experience. And then the other person's like, all right, enough of this, right? So I think you do have to set boundaries because otherwise it just becomes a nonstop cycle. And oftentimes it's a downward cycle and it just brings you down. It wears you in your mental health. It wears you in your energy. And a seemingly otherwise positive person can sink down into a very negative space if they dwell in that space too long.

Dr. Shay: 9:13

Absolutely. Absolutely. That part about the unspoken emotional labor that people carry into the home after they clock out. I mean, gosh, that line is so hard to draw though, because, you know, again, everything you just went through in the last eight hours, it's fresh on your mind. And you often want to talk to the one person who is hopefully your best friend and you want to vent to, which is your partner. And then, you know, I can imagine that being a sort of another toxic cycle that's been created at home.

Darrin: 9:41

It can be. Because if that's all you do is talk about work, then the other person's like, listen, I know how important this is to you, but I got my own problems, right? So from a relationship perspective, there can be healthy ways, tangible ways where you can just say, listen, we get 30 minutes each. We can talk about work for 30 minutes and then let's move on to something else. Let's watch a show together. Let's go for a walk. Let's go play pickleball. Let's do anything. But if that's If work consumes you, I think that will grind you down even quicker. And I'm so glad you brought up this topic about emotional labor because it's the hidden labor. It's very easy if we see a firefighter carrying a heavy hose and going up and down the ladder and pulling these heavy pieces of equipment around. Well, that's physical labor. We see that and we know how demanding that can be. And we might say to ourselves, that must make that person really tired. Well, emotional labor... is just as draining if you constantly have to give of yourself and you know there's two there's two aspects of emotional labor and the one i think that uh drains you the most is this thing called surface acting where if the place where you work if the expectations are hey you always have to smile and especially in the service industry and if you're behind a counter and the expectation is as the employee you always have to smile and the person across the counter is really berating you, well, now you have to surface act. Okay, sir. Okay, ma'am. Well, let me. And on the inside, you're just furious. That will really wear you down. So at the end of the day, doing this all day, you are completely exhausted.

Dr. Shay: 11:23

That makes perfect sense. Yeah. Going back just a little bit, actually, to your toxic work environment in the military, and mind you, my military knowledge is very limited. I understand that world.

Darrin: 11:37

Different

Dr. Shay: 11:39

world, but I imagine similar to other places like in the corporate sphere as well, power seems to often be confused with control. Yeah. And that confusion creates, again, environments where fear, not trust, drives behavior. So where do you think that, where is that mix up coming from? Like, why do we just see power as this control factor?

Darrin: 12:05

Yeah, so in my experience, what I found is leaders like the first company commander who I told you about. I'm not going to say any names. I'm not about throwing people under the bus. But it is a fact that if somehow this person stumbles upon this, I hope you're a better leader now than you were then, right? People grow, people change. Otherwise, why would we have this podcast? Why would we have the consulting that I'm trying to do? I believe people can change and grow and learn. But this whole thing about power is it's almost a direct correlation. is the folks and the type of leaders who I call the yellers and the screamers. And it's not just in the military. It's just as much in the civilian workforce. But the folks who put on this persona and march around and point their finger because they just want that power. They want to control people. But what I have found is that often they are the most insecure. You know, they've got self-doubt. And so they feel like they have to project this extra toughness or whatever. What I'm drawn to is we talk about power, this referent power. It's the interpersonal skills. It's the ability to relate to people. My experience, that's what really makes people want to follow. That's what motivates people to want to go above and beyond. So if I go back to the first company and the second company that I was in, the units, the Bravo company and the Charlie company, of course, if my commander gives me an order, of course, I'm going to follow that order. Nothing that he ever told us to do was unlawful. We did it to the best of our ability, but it was a difference in the new company and the positive unit, right? We would do our best and then we would find a way to go above and beyond because the leader there, we felt really cared about us as a person. And when you can connect with somebody on that personal level and it's not just about the business, the workforce, they will do great things. They will surprise you. They will go above and beyond anything you ask them to do.

Dr. Shay: 13:57

Absolutely. And so, you know, speaking of that sort of dynamic, and I realized we might even be using the term leaders kind of loosely, if I'm being honest, because in my experiences, I've been shown there is a clear distinction between leadership and management. And I think it's sort of assumed a lot of times that because someone's in management, they are good leaders, or, you know, they are leaders at all, when in reality, people just naturally move up corporate ladder and it makes sense to be promoted, but very little are they actually trained or taught key and core leadership skills. So can you talk to me a little bit about the importance of why people need leaders who see them and not just manage them?

Darrin: 14:38

That's probably the most important thing is the people aspect of it. There's a model that I follow. I'm not saying I invented this or whatever, but it's people plus process equals products. And in the people part is the interpersonal relationships, the ability to connect emotional intelligence, these types of things. The process could be anything. It could be an assembly line. It could be, you know, a bakery. It could be a dance crew. It could be the process could be anything. But it's always people. It takes we put so much emphasis when we talk about leadership on authentic leadership, charismatic leadership, compassionate leadership and all these things. We can't discount the process part of it, right? Being a nice leader is not enough. Like I also want a leader who really knows what the heck they're doing. When I was in the army on the front lines, I wanted my leaders to also know how to do war fighting and not just be a really nice person. Ultimately, that person is both. And so one of the, I would say a manager. This gentleman was in a role as the executive officer of our brigade when we went into Iraq in 2003. He didn't have very strong people skills, but his ability to forecast logistics and his ability to understand communication systems, he was the ideal manager, really. And that paired up with the commander who really understood the people part. They made this great command team partnership because one really had the people part strong, And the other one was very strong in the management type of skills.

Dr. Shay: 16:14

Right, right. And so building on what you've seen from different types of leaders, talk to me about how those lived experiences played into you building your own consulting business.

Darrin: 16:26

So again, I do believe people can change. The leadership classes that I teach, I design it very much to be a leadership development course. So they're getting about leadership theory, like they're understanding the terminology. But I want it to be applicable. I want them to grow. So we do these reflections where every week it's an assignment and they have to read the assignment and do some type of survey, either a self-survey or somebody will do a survey on them. And then they reflect on it and they identify their weaker areas, which we all have. The best leaders you can ever imagine, my favorite leaders, they still have weak areas, right? So leading, becoming a better leader is all about learning. It's about being open to understanding that you do have weak areas. If you think you have just got it going on as a leader and there's nothing you can improve in, you're not going to grow. You're not going to improve. So that's the first part. But I do believe people can change. Otherwise, why would we even be having this conversation? The point of this is that it's OrgFit360, my consulting company, which is just getting off the ground here, is built on the fundamental belief that no employee should ever go to work with a pit in their stomach. So I want to work with leaders. I want to work with team members. And when I talk about the 360-degree part of it, it's the survey tools because oftentimes we see things from a different perspective. And we might be in that friction if there's incongruence, if there's a difference between what you see, you're the leader, I'm the team member. And I'm asking you these questions. How healthy is this workplace? And you rate it a 10. It's the healthiest workplace. What are you talking about? And I'm the employee or the employees collectively are rating it at a two. Well, that's a huge disconnect. There is a blind spot that the leaders aren't seeing. So leaders will take a survey that's with the same elements in it, written for them. And then team members will also answer the same types of questions. And then when I do my data analysis, because it's very much data driven, I'm not like just sticking my finger in the wind and trying to figure it out. It's going to be data driven. The important part is to see where the disconnects are. Because that's where the real friction comes in. Like something is seriously wrong here. If you're seeing it up here and they're seeing it down here or vice versa, they're seeing it up here. So the point of it is to let's come to a closer agreement about where the misunderstandings are.

Dr. Shay: 19:01

Absolutely. Definitely have experienced that as well. I think what naturally happens, especially as people move up the management ladder, is you almost forget what it was like to once be in the employee's place. So something that you've now been doing for 20 plus years, it's second nature to you. And we think that when we give someone a one-line instruction on how to do something, that they're just going to know how to do it at that same level. And that's just not how it works when it took you five years to learn how to do it as well.

Darrin: 19:28

100%. 100%. And based on our model, right? Like it's the same with the platoon leader. The day that I stepped foot and met my platoon, I was at that very moment, I was the least experienced person in that platoon. And yet I was the platoon leader. You know, the private who I ranked, the lieutenant outranks the private who got there a week before I did, was more experienced in that platoon than I was yet. I was in charge. So sometimes leaders get to a position and they never did the ground level work. So they can't understand it because they never did it. So now we have to have a conversation because most of your top management books and research is that the solutions will often be found not in the boardroom, but on the floor of the plant, so to speak, where the workers are.

Dr. Shay: 20:20

Excellent point. Yes. Yes. That's also, yeah, again, a huge disconnect. It's just not even understanding what the practical day-to-day execution looks like, but the assumption of the bigger picture idea of what you think it should look like.

Darrin: 20:35

Absolutely. I call it the law of unintended consequences, right? If you're sitting way up high and you're making decisions, uninformed decisions, but you think it's informed and you haven't talked to folks from up and down the company, right? not just the folks in the floor, middle management, they see things from a very unique perspective. They're closer to the workforce, right? And they're kind of this buffer between senior leaders and the workforce. If you're not getting feedback from everybody, but especially the employees, the ones who are really making it happen every day, you're going to make decisions that you think are great, but come to find out a year down the road, that was not the best decision, right? It's the law of unintended consequences. We thought we were going to come to this outcome. But we came to a completely different outcome than none of us anticipated.

Dr. Shay: 21:23

Right. So as you're building up your consulting firm, talk to me a little bit about the sort of emotional process of building a brand that reflects your values. Because I know for me, even starting off, I underestimated. You know, I think of myself as a pretty... introspective person, but I didn't realize so much of building the business in the beginning was going to involve so much self-reflection. Like me really building something that reflects who I am, my mission, my values, all of these things, right? It's just kind of, I didn't think much about the branding process of anything, which your brand is pretty much your reputation, right? Just what people think or how they feel when they leave a conversation with you. So talk to me about that process of building your brand.

Darrin: 22:08

So I was so focused on the technical parts of it, like the services I'll offer, pricing models, all these other things. I wasn't even thinking about those elements until, believe it or not, until you and I talked. And you were the one who planted the seed that there's a very important part that I have to also think about. But the word that I'll always come back to is about integrity, doing things with very high ethical standards and having integrity. And so when I'm meeting with clients, they have to know that I'm dealing from a background of two very different, but two institutions that are widely regarded as being highly ethical, the military and higher education. And so some may debate the higher education part of that, but from my experience, all the folks I've dealt with, the professors, they're in it for the students, most of the ones that... that I've dealt with. So my brand is very much based on being humble. Of all the personality traits, the one that least resonates with me is an arrogant person, is kind of a know-it-all. So I don't want to be a know-it-all. I actually want to be a learn-it-all. I want to learn more and more.

Dr. Shay: 23:21

I love that, a learn-it-all.

Darrin: 23:23

Yeah, I want to be a learn-it-all. I don't want to be a know-it-all. I want to be a learn-it-all. There's so much to learn. And so I see it as a win-win situation when I can get in work with these companies, work with leaders, work with team members, work with the entire organization. Hopefully, they're going to create a more positive, a healthier work climate, which will benefit them because healthier, more emotionally stable employees are going to be much more effective, much more efficient, much more motivated. And that's actually going to increase the bottom line more than them coming in with the hammer and hammering the workforce.

Dr. Shay: 24:01

Mm-hmm.

Darrin: 24:01

But then through the process, too, certainly I'm going to learn a lot about myself, a lot about how I can improve as a leader. So leadership is one of these deals where you pay it forward all the time. You know, I picked up things from you. Hopefully I can pass things along to other people. And collectively, we can all learn and grow from each other.

Dr. Shay: 24:19

That's the goal, right?

Darrin: 24:23

It is. It is the goal. So the 360 part of the OrgFit 360, I like the image and the metaphor about This thing is just a cycle that we can all grow. We can all improve.

Dr. Shay: 24:33

Right. Well, thank you so much, Darren. It's been a beautiful conversation. We're going to talk a lot more after this.

Darrin: 24:40

Absolutely.

Dr. Shay: 24:41

Can you let everyone know where to find you and follow your work?

Darrin: 24:44

Sure. The website is orgfit360.com and look for me. I recently went to the Cobb County Chamber of Commerce in Cobb County, Georgia. So initially, I'm going to look to really plug in with some local folks and then kind of just bring it nationally, if you will. So one step at a time, a crawl, walk, run. But I firmly believe that if I can make just even a small difference in one person's life, that's worth it for me. I'm reminded of the story of the girl who was walking along the beach, tossing the starfish. Maybe you've heard this story before. tossing the starfish. There's hundreds of starfish along the beach and she's putting them back in and this old man kind of stumbles upon her and he's wagging his finger at this young lady. And she says, or he says, surely you can't make a difference with all these starfish. And she said, you know what? Maybe not all of them. And she bent down and picked up another one and she tossed it in the ocean. But I made a difference with that one. So that's what it's all about. You know, maybe we can't touch every single life, but if we can just make a small difference, we're doing something really meaningful.

Dr. Shay: 25:53

Thank you so

Darrin: 25:54

much. Yeah, absolutely. It was a pleasure.

Dr. Shay: 25:56

What stood out most in today's conversation is that leadership isn't about titles or tactics. It's about the tone you set, the presence you bring, and the humanity you uphold. Darren reminded us that toxic workplaces don't just damage morale. They often leave lasting marks on how people see themselves. But when leaders show up with clarity, care, and courage, the culture shifts. If you're in a workplace that drains more than it gives, you're not imagining it, you're not alone. If you're in a workplace that drains more than it gives, you're not imagining it, and you're not alone. And if you're in a position to lead, even informally, remember, every small act of respect, transparency, and trust makes a difference. Leadership is always relational, and healing the workplace starts with the people in it. So if nothing else, let today be your reminder that no one should dread going to work and building something better starts now. As always, thank you for joining me today in the Resolution Room. I'm grateful you're here doing this work alongside me. If this episode spoke to you, I'd love for you to please share. And until next time, keep building in the quiet because that's what will carry you forward. s