Belonging Without Permission: Navigating Underrepresentation in Professional Spaces

Summary

In this conversation, James Maurice Bumpas shares his experiences as a Black professional navigating predominantly white workspaces. He discusses the challenges of microaggressions, the difference between racism and prejudice, and the importance of belonging versus merely fitting in. James also delves into the complexities of code switching, the burden of representation, and how his definition of leadership has evolved over time. His insights provide a valuable perspective on the dynamics of race and leadership in professional environments.

Key Takeaways

• James Bumpas is the founder and CEO of Bumpus Technical Services.
• He shares experiences of being the only Black professional in high-tech jobs.
• Microaggressions often manifest as well-meaning but biased comments.
• Racism is defined by power dynamics, while prejudice is more individual.
• Fitting in requires compromise, while belonging is about authenticity.
• Code switching is a survival mechanism in professional settings.
• Staying grounded involves faith, self-awareness, and resilience.
• Representation in leadership roles can be burdensome for individuals.
• Leadership should focus on people, not just tasks.
• Continuous learning and mentorship are essential for effective leadership.

Chapters

• 0:51 Navigating Racial Dynamics in the Workplace
• 4:18 Invisible Dynamics and Microaggressions
• 8:05 Understanding Racism vs. Prejudice
• 10:57 Fitting In vs. Belonging
• 12:53 The Complexity of Code Switching
• 22:19 Staying Grounded in Conformity
• 25:21 Embracing Authenticity in Leadership
• 28:13 The Role of Personal Experience in Leadership
• 30:34 Navigating Representation and Individuality
• 34:33 The Burden of Representation in Relationships
• 37:03 Evolving Definitions of Leadership

Transcript

Dr. Shay: 0:01

Welcome back to The Resolution Room, where we turn tension into transformation through clarity, connection, and consistency. I'm your host, Dr. Nashay Lowe, and this is a space where we explore what's really underneath the moments that challenge us and how they can lead to something more honest or human and more whole. So let's get into it. All right, James, can you introduce yourself to the audience, please?

James Bumpas: 0:42

I sure can, Dr. Nashay. Thank you so much for your time today. I am James Maurice Bumpas. I am founder and CEO of Bumpus Technical Services, and I actually own an IT company, but I offer services around four areas, IT program management and project management. I also do leadership development, mentoring and coaching and executive services. And last but not least, I do professional speaking.

Dr. Shay: 1:13

Amazing, amazing. So let's start off by talking a little bit about your personal experiences. So can you share like an early experience where you found yourself being the only Black professional in a workspace and how that shaped your perspective?

James Bumpas: 1:30

Sure, sure. Thank you. Actually, you know, born and raised in Tennessee, that happens a lot. I found at an early age I was gifted in a technical perspective, wound up in high-tech jobs. I was an aviation electrician in the Navy, and there were not a lot of aviation electricians in the Navy that looked like me. So Desert Shield, Desert Storm, I served 10 years in the Navy. Setting myself apart was something I found challenging for the overt and covert racism that would occur in the service. And so while they would profess that everybody was the same, uniformity must prevail, there were a lot of innuendos, a lot of things said, a lot of differences, hypocrisy in how they would treat, my white counterparts versus me on having to excel. But when it came time for the exams, that was something I found was truly uniform, where being able to excel in the Navy from an aviation electrician perspective, when you sit down for your exam, It didn't matter who you were. Your knowledge, your studying, your ability to succeed in that went back to your prep and your expertise in being able to make rank. Now, as you moved up through the ranks, it became more subjective than objective. So that's something that I liked being able to say, I was able to do it by my own merit up until you get into the higher ranks when they start having panel reviews for you, which was a lot more like the civilian counterparts where it gets very subjective and selective.

Dr. Shay: 3:36

Yeah. Thank you for putting that in the context too, because if I can be candid, even deciding to have this conversation on the podcast, you know, gave me a little pause because the political climate and you have to decide, am I willing to even put myself out there to talk about something like this? But,

James Bumpas: 3:53

you

Dr. Shay: 3:54

know, everyone gets tired of talking about it. I think more, more so ourselves than anybody else gets tired

James Bumpas: 4:00

of talking about it. It can be exhausting. You're right, Dr. Nashay, but I got to tell you, I'm glad to have the conversation. I appreciate the, you know, the forum, the vehicle, the opportunity to do so. Cause a lot of times, you know, Sweeping it under a rug or not having a conversation is not necessarily always the right solution either. So I think talking about it and getting it out there and then doing it in a way that's more constructive than destructive is the way to manage it.

Dr. Shay: 4:28

And this is why I'm talking to the right person then, because I agree. I think I want this episode to be more informative than anything. I think, again, a lot of assumptions can be made about what other people are going through. But when you have someone giving you just a perspective of what their day-to-day looks like, and it's things that you will never have to experience, lucky for you, it's just helpful for them to get that insight. So Talk to me a little bit about some of the invisible dynamics people of color face in predominantly white professional environment.

James Bumpas: 5:00

Yeah, one of them is the whole, you're not like most black people. You know, when you start to have allies and they befriend you, they say things such as, and I say, when you say invisible, I'll use one as of the level of uncomfortability in the people that gravitate towards you. So if they consider themselves friends and allies, they'll say things not even realizing that it's racist or it's biased or it's prejudiced in a sense that they feel like they're connecting or they're giving you a compliment. And I just gave you an example in that, you know, you're one of the good ones or you're not like most black people. And I'm like, oh, you know, you know a lot of black people, do you? You know, and I'm like, I'll say things and challenge them on that dynamic of what that bias is, like what their mindset is on what most black people are like, you know, and challenge those type of mindsets. That's one. The other one I find illuminating to me are the jokes, you know, the racial jokes when they say, don't be offended or, you know, I'm going to tell a joke. And and they set it up as a preamble, as if with their little disclaimer that it's OK to be racist because, hey, it's a joke. And as I matured in the school systems and college and in the military, and especially in high-tech environments where I was truly, like you said, the only person of color in the room, especially as a black man. And I won't say only person of color, because as I.T. as I.T. continues to evolve, there are a lot of people from the Middle East and from Southwest Asia in the room and Asian. But black wise, I was the only one in the room. But they would say things like, I'm going to tell a joke. And, you know, because I issued this disclaimer, it's OK. So don't take offense. So I got to where I would stop them. I would say, if you have to issue this little disclaimer, don't even tell me the joke because I'm not going to find it funny if you have to single me out and say, don't be offended. I said, I don't even want to hear the joke. And that took courage because a lot of times you don't want to have to make a scene or you want to go along and get along in some cases. But I found that the people who would tell those jokes, you know, that was... a way to let racism in and call it a joke. And so I call it passive aggressive, you know, a passive aggressive behavior or microaggression in a sense. So I would, I stop it. Like being a leader from the military all the way forward, not only would I not condone hearing it, I would condone hearing it from my team. So, you know, I would kind of set a tone for conversations that would be very well-rounded or accepting of everyone.

Dr. Shay: 8:24

Amazing. And that's what leadership is, right? Modeling what you want

James Bumpas: 8:27

to see. And unfortunately, a lot of times you stand alone because you get that from your peer leadership team.

Dr. Shay: 8:32

Very true. Very true. I'm curious from just your personal experiences, which you've studied in your background, how do you differentiate between racism and prejudice?

James Bumpas: 8:47

Yeah, very good question. I'm hearing a lot about this a lot lately. And I think racist is when your prejudice allows you to be in a position of power and you can hold it over and actually negatively impact another person of a different ethnicity or your belief system is different than theirs. So racism is about power. Like I can be prejudiced because I'm different than another person or I don't like how they treat me or others. Or I don't I don't like them because I'm biased and I'm different than another person. Everybody has biases. But if I'm in a position of leadership like I am now as a CEO, you know, and I have a white person on my team and I'm using that prejudice. to make them feel lesser or to single them out and oppress them, then I'm a racist in that particular case, in that dynamic. So the power dynamic outside of my company, most times, You know, the system, especially here in the United States or the UK or any system built upon slavery or the systems that's in place like the United States is such that we don't have the power to hold down another another people.

Dr. Shay: 10:07

OK, so what I'm hearing is it sounds like racism is more at the systemic institutional level and prejudice sounds like it's more at the individual level. Relational level.

James Bumpas: 10:18

Yeah. And also power. Like if I can have if I can if I can use my influence and position over another person, then then yes. At the micro level, like in my case, I'm an entrepreneur. And let's say I have a staff of five people and I'm using my prejudice and my biases to negatively impact or oppress another person on my team. then at that micro level, I could be considered in that bubble, in that boundary to be a racist. However, in the system, the system of things in the United States, it's typically gonna be the people that's had the system built around them to oppress and hold back. So yes, systematically it's been designed for the majority population. That's my opinion.

Dr. Shay: 11:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when we're talking about, again, we'll stick to like workplace dynamics, I guess. How do you distinguish between fitting in and belonging?

James Bumpas: 11:34

Ah, very good question. Belonging is such that it's natural. Fitting in, you're making a conscious decision to set aside your belief system, your mindset or thought process and you're not necessarily as comfortable, but you're there, you're in the space, you're physically in the room, but you can feel alone in a room full of people, that's fitting in. That's when you're like, okay, I don't really agree with what's being said, or I don't agree with what's being done, but I'm here, I have access. Belonging is one where I'm not only in the room, I'm aligned with the mission, vision, value statements. I'm contributing. I feel like I'm valued by the resources in the room, whether they are peers, whether they are junior to me by seniority, or whether they are senior to me. So belonging is one where what I brought to the table is able to assist in the organization to make a difference. and I'm being called on for my expertise and vice versa.

Dr. Shay: 12:46

And so building on that, thinking about balancing authenticity and adaptability, when we talk about code switching, I'm curious how you approach that in a way that protects your energy and identity. But I do wanna, I will point that even outside of just the workplace or black white dynamics, Code switching, how I was actually introduced to it. I have a handful of African friends who I love to death. And when I first, so that when I'm with them, you would think they're born and raised in Atlanta. And then when I go to their, meet their families and I'm like, who are you? Like the way you start talking changes, the way you move changes. It is insane to me. One of my closest friends is from Congo. And, um, When

James Bumpas: 13:32

I first saw her, I'll tell you in a minute, we'll go ahead.

Dr. Shay: 13:35

Yeah. Yeah. And when I first saw her, you know, she took me to her church for a weekend, predominantly, you know, uh, African community. And I was like, where am I? I've known her for like 10 years and I've never seen

James Bumpas: 13:48

her. Yeah. I think, I think code switching is a survival mechanism. I think, um, I think we do it automatically, um, as a survival mechanism and also from a relatability perspective, like, um, I'm born and raised here in Tennessee as a good example. However, you notice I don't have a Tennessee twang. On certain words, you will hear it, but if you had my brothers in the room or my parents or people who never left my hometown, their dialect's very country. That's a good example. And also, As you progress up the education chains, you being a doctor, you get this. How you speak professionally, me being a professional speaker, how you handle yourself in a corporate setting, that's a form of code switching as well, where you have to talk the lingo and you have to carry yourself in a certain manner. But the cultural code switching is unique in the sense that I've been in environments where I wasn't quote unquote black enough, and I've been in environments where I was too black. And what I had to learn as I continued to mature and get to know who I was is that I'm extremely comfortable in the skin I'm in now. But when I was younger, that was a struggle. you know, of who am I, you know, that identity crisis. And, you know, that has to do with my faith. That has to do with knowing who I am, what I bring to the table and just, you know, learning to be patient and understanding that I got to be who I am. So I know who I am. So I'm, I'm not sending contradictory messages, you know, and a lot of it happened, Dr. Neshea, when I became a parent, because I, You know, I couldn't very well tell my children to be comfortable in who they are. And then I'm the one switching and pivoting and being, what I'm trying to say, like all over the place with my personality trying to fit in. So, you know, like you mentioned African. I've done my ancestry through africanancestry.com and also through ancestry.com. I'm actually from Congo. Really? Yeah. I got a percentage from Congo. I got a percentage from the Cameroon, Rwandan area, the whole slave Ivory Coast, naturally. A lot of us came through that direction, but I have Congo in me as well. So it's funny that that's the first country you mentioned from the continent of Africa. But you're right. I have a lot of African friends and friends I call them family because we got family everywhere. Right. And and some of them don't like us because we don't show who we truly are. And I try to explain to them we don't know who we truly are because our histories were stolen and we've been fed in this country with a lot of false information. false history. You know, history is told by the victor. Victor, not the victim, so to speak. So, you know, with the information age, we are relearning our history. And even some of the Africans from the northern part of Africa were misled. It was a major misinformation campaign that we left on our own, you know. So I had some people from northern Africa that I met in Israel treat me harshly as an African-American, you know, or a black man, because they thought, you know, they were told by the European settlers, their ancestors generations ago, people that they love, you know? So what do you do when your parents or your parents' parents tell you that, you know, the African people left on their own, you know? And so that gave me a different dynamic from being upset with some of the Africans that treated us funny. And so I know that wasn't all. But when you look at the Europeans who just want to continue trading with the North African countries, they were looking at it from a commerce perspective, passing poor information, you know, and I'm not making excuses. This is just what I found out, you know, through my travels, being able to travel internationally. And I found that interesting. I found that history, yet again, something that I had never learned growing up. So it doesn't, in my opinion, give Africans or North Africans the right to mistreat or judge us, by and large, to be taking against our will as chattel slavery in the United States. But it's a real situation with the whole idea of how do I fit in and how do I code switch to fit the situation? I like the videos my wife will show me walking through on TikTok. She'll just say, hey, check this out. And some of them are funny where you'll see like a black person walk into a coffee lounge. And depending on who they engage with, they literally switch how they engage on the fly. And so Keegan Peele was one of the comedy shows I always liked. And they show Keegan Peele do that so smoothly when he was playing Barack Obama as president. I don't know if you've seen that skit, but it tickled me where he was like, when he engaged with Black people, he was dapping them up and doing, hey, pleasure to meet you, pleasure to meet you. And then he's like, what's up, what's up? But I just love that because my wife tells me all the time, and I didn't notice it until she brought it. She's Mexican. She's of Mexican descent. And she says, I love how Black people greet each other. You know, she said, you all look at each other and you say, it's like, it's almost unheard of the way you look. You say, I see you. And we'll smile and we'll nod to each other or we'll speak in a way like, like, good to see you, brother, you know, good to see you, sister. And it's this family, this familial connection. And she said, we don't do that. You know, you know, she's from Texas and she'll say, we don't do that. I said, well, you do different things that I see that's very family based, you know. Yeah.

Dr. Shay: 20:23

And

James Bumpas: 20:26

so now how like the things that I admire in her culture, when she said, you're right, you're right. We do that and we do this. And like, she's very close with her sisters and her brother. They just have such a tight unit and they've welcomed me in as her husband into that tight family.

Dr. Shay: 20:41

That's amazing. Yeah. And, you know, there's so much you said I could unpack, but that would be a completely different episode. Yeah. But I will say, as far as the code switching, I think to a certain extent, too, there's, you know, it gets a negative connotation or association with it. I mean, there's a time and place sometimes because, like you said, there's nothing wrong to me with being adaptable. I mean, different situations call for different things.

James Bumpas: 21:09

You know, and it's a quality. It's a characteristic that we hold in high regard, especially as you move up the leadership ladder. chain in your organizations or in your own when you when you have a company and you have to engage with people with different cultures and different mindsets different backgrounds and so you know socioeconomic education all the different ways you know like me and you as an example i would i would be remiss to assume that there's not diversity amongst me and you. And I need to be, I don't want to assume, right? I don't want to assume anything. And so I want to approach you properly and be respectful and not come up, what's up girl? And all this, like, I don't know you're up, you know what I mean? And sometimes you'll see it too. You'll see some people get offended If you approach them too casually and they look like us. Right.

Dr. Shay: 22:04

Yeah, exactly. Case by case, you know, like we're all individuals as well. So absolutely. So talk to me a little bit about what strategies have helped you stay grounded in spaces that expect you to conform.

James Bumpas: 22:16

Yeah. Good point. Number one, my faith, my wife, remembering who I am. One of the things my parents, it's funny. I'm knocking on 54, right? Dr. Neshea, I'll be 54 in August. And I think what's funny, thank you. I think what's funny is advice my parents gave me at 17 years old. You know, like here I am leaving for bootcamp and my dad told me one thing and my mom told me one thing and it wasn't at the same time. But right before I left, left home at 17, my dad said, always have thick skin. And my mom said, always be willing to talk to people. And so those two together at a young age really helped mold and become almost a mantra for me in a sense of being able to engage with any and everybody, even people I knew were racist and they were proud of it. And like I say, the service throws you all together and you gotta make it work. And so some people were very bold about it, but they were willing to talk And not everything they said was worth hearing, naturally, but I was willing to listen and not always get so emotionally hijacked by what they were saying. And it was a guy in my boot camp in my company from West Virginia. And doctor didn't say I found him staring at me so many times. It was awkward. Like, what's up with this guy? You know, like, he was staring at me. And so finally, I approached him. I said, hey, man, why you keep staring at me? And he was like, look, man, I'm from a small town in West Virginia. By the way, this is 1989. I want to put it in perspective. He says, in my small town, we have one other Black family. And you're nothing like my grandmother said. So here he is, raised by his grandmother, who went to New York, had a horrible experience, right? And poured all this negativity about black people into her grandson who then joins the Navy and he meets me and he's willing to say that to me. And I didn't know how to accept it, but being from Tennessee, growing up where you're the minority with a lot of white people all around you, you know, I was like taking a back a little bit, but then he opened up and we, we wound up having a lot in common. He was willing to reach out. We wound up being, we both boxed back then. My dad was a golden gloves in the Vietnam era of army. And, uh, he boxed, he taught all his boys how to box. It was three of us. I'm the middleman. And, uh, And so this guy, Rodney, he boxed. And so we kind of connected on that, you know. And so we would train together in the evenings and in our own little time. But the bottom line is in two short, you know, two and a half short months, three months of boot camp, you know, I totally changed his opinion. It wasn't the intent. Yeah, yeah. It was just being me, you know. And so... What I learned from that early was continue to be yourself to your point, staying grounded, being willing to talk, having thick skin, not being so easily offended, but also standing your ground. Don't roll over to fit in and be abused by people. Like I've never liked bullies. Like, you know, I thought a lot growing up. And now I fight with my brain like corporate bullies and people who have positions of power like the police or like politicians or like people in positions of leadership over you in the workplace. You know, that office bullying and workplace mobbing, you know, those are my targets now when they target and identify people who are aren't necessarily strong enough to stand up for themselves. And so I find myself with that protector spirit getting between them and the people they're bullying. And so I find that the reason I focus so much on leadership as it came out in my chapter in the book that I became published on was by good leadership and bad leadership, I find that there's a leadership deficit and it's horrible across the world, the globe. And I found that that's the gift that God gave me to focus on and dig into and learn. So when people ask me, is a good leader made or is he born? And I say, yes. Both? Yeah, both, because you have to continue to hone your craft. You know, it's not all just God given talent. You also have to stay abreast of new techniques to engage with people and meet them where they are, you know, around the introvert extrovert model around, you know, predictive index around all the different tools and techniques to allow you to be successful and allow your teams to be successful. But all those aspects help me stay grounded and connected. with people. And remember that all people are leaders in their own house, in their own homes every day. And so meeting them where they are and treat them with dignity and respect is paramount.

Dr. Shay: 28:08

Amazing. Yes. That's so many things I want to touch on, but I'll start here. Going back to the power of the stories that are handed down to us that aren't even our own. and how they become what leads us. That part really stuck with me because, again, I think that happens so much where you find yourself, you almost wake up maybe in your 30s or so, and you start for the first time really examining why you believe anything you believe, and you realize half the time you don't know. You were just taught that.

James Bumpas: 28:41

Yeah, and for me, it happened in the 20s because of my military experience. And when you have threats... against your life at an early age, you do examine yourself earlier. You know, like whether it's the street life or the military life or any situations of danger, you know, if given the chance, a lot of people will analyze or evaluate their life at that point in time. And so I did it earlier than a lot of people did. You know, like my kids, I say my kids, my daughter, who's the oldest, you know, she's 32 and she's just now doing that. Whereas my son who's, who just turned 29, he did nine years in the army. And so he's a bit more mature in this way of assessing his life. He's immature in other ways, but this, but the army kind of accelerates that where you, you know, that identity, who am I, what am I about? You know, what do I care about? What I believe in? In some ways, he's very still immature in that space. Yeah. In other ways, you know, that that morality, mortality conversation you have inside your head and start figuring it out. Yeah.

Dr. Shay: 29:58

Yeah, I like that. And I actually want to have, I'll probably have to have you back one later for a different discussion about just military because I actually, I haven't released it yet, but there's an episode I'm going to remind you when it's out to listen to. I interviewed another military guy who's also doing leadership coaching. And I would love for the two of you guys to hear two different. Oh, that'd be nice. Yeah, that would be really interesting. So, We kind of talked a little bit earlier about, you know, even those within the same community, we have our differences as well. We're individuals. So how do you and your experience sort of advocate for representation without shouldering the burden of being the spokesperson for an entire community?

James Bumpas: 30:39

Well said. Wow. That's a mouthful. Me and my wife talk about it all the time. With her being Latina, she says all the time, you know, as a joke, well, when I go back to my people meeting, you know, when we gather all my people, I'll be sure to announce this at the next meeting. And we joke because, you know, I would do us a disservice as a Black man if I ever thought I was speaking for anyone other than myself. So, I actually now tee it up as such. Anytime someone asks me a question, like why do you all fill in the blank? I make sure that when I answer, they understand I'm answering from my perspective, my experiences, the things I've been through in my life and how I see things. But to your point, representation does matter because I don't want them to lean on me for that. Especially as you move up in the leadership ranks. And I know it's taboo, but a token. I don't wanna be the only black on the leadership team. I don't wanna be the only man on the leadership team. You know what I mean? All those things add undue pressure on your shoulders And if you don't recognize it, you'll fall into that place of carrying that mantle. And I'll give you an example that's more personal than business, just to prove a point. I was, this is my second marriage. And I don't mind sharing this. I mean, but because it's helped me be a better man. But with my first wife, she, you know, all of us carry a, a little wagon of experiences and into every relationship we have of, I won't do that again. And that ain't happening again on my watch, you know, experiences. And one of the things she brought was this angst toward men. She'd been burned quite a few times and hurt by men. And I consider myself a good man, but I was being constantly penalized for what other men did. And so I kind of took it upon myself to try to be this Superman for all the wrongs every other man in her past did. And I got to tell you, Dr. Neche, it is exhausting, right? So not only was I being punished and penalized for something that I had not done, it wasn't sustainable. It was frustrating. You know, I tried the unconditional love model of Jesus. I tried to be an understanding husband. And the bitterness got the best of me. You know, as a human, I failed. I not only failed to fulfill that image of a good man, I wind up not being a good man. You know, I actually, it almost became almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Wow. You know, that when I faltered, it was like, see, I told you you wasn't a good man. Right. And so what I learned when I found myself after the divorce and I found who I was is that I had no business trying to take on that mantle. I have to be the best man I can be and keep it at that and honor my word. Right. And be the best I can be and commit to what I can commit to and and not try to be everything for everybody else. And so taking it into the workplace as leaders, I heard something last week that was so powerful because I still believe in being mentored, even though I believe in mentoring. Like,

Dr. Shay: 34:46

oh, absolutely.

James Bumpas: 34:47

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it never stops. Like. That's the Owen Polish, by the way, objective mentoring, as you saw in the chapter, is you continuously hone, you continuously work and improve. No one ever has it all put together. And so one of the things I heard last week from an advisor was that as a leader, we think we're supposed to solve everything. especially as we get higher and higher, you know, especially like senior manager, director up. We think when our team bring, bring us something, we're supposed to interject and solve. But in reality, we're supposed to actually serve almost like a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Like, well, what do you think? What's the, you know, you're closer to it than I am. You're the subject matter expert. What would you, what do you think should be done? What are the best solutions? And, and my engineering manager, um, taught me early in my career come to me with three three alternatives

Dr. Shay: 35:50

yes i heard someone else before today like if you come to me with three problems and also come with three solutions yeah

James Bumpas: 35:56

and and and it was like three solutions for one problem nine times out of ten i stopped going to my manager because i knew which of the three were the were the best option and i just i had i had the autonomy and power to implement it so what happened was i got better and making leadership decisions because I did the work versus trying to dump it on my boss's lap, right? And it made me a better leader as I moved up and I could pass that knowledge and that leadership lesson onto my team. Because it does make you feel good. Like when you're a new leader, you want to be everything for everybody. Cause you're like, you wanna demonstrate that, hey, I'm a leader, I'm a good leader. Let me show you how I can help you. So in a mindset of being helpful, We can do too much for people. Exactly. And hinder their progress because... And hinder their progress.

Dr. Shay: 36:49

Yeah. Wow. I'm curious, again, given all your experiences, how has your definition of leadership evolved over time?

James Bumpas: 37:00

Yeah. Great question. I kind of answered a piece of that in a previous response, but now I'm learning when I was... When I was in corporate before I formed my own business in 2021, I was much more of the thought leader, listening, guiding, very in touch with people, but very situational servant leader. So never been a dictator, but I can make a decision. And I'm not afraid of making a decision with limited data. You know, Six Sigma, I've always been the type to have enough data to make a good decision. And then when we get more information, we pivot. But analysis by paralysis or paralysis by analysis, no, no, we're not going to do that. We're not going to sit here and flounder. So now I'm the type that I expect my team to do that, you know? And so I hold people accountable without being, a dictator or nasty, so to speak, you know, like holding my thumb down on people or making them look bad or, you know, I don't have to beat my chest and say, hey, I'm the boss. You know, I've had some leaders struggle with my leadership style when they're more like a dictator because they felt like they needed to know everything. And I don't always feel like I need to know everything. I know everything is going well. I know the bottom lines. I know my role. I know that we're hitting the goals and objectives. And I know why we're hitting them. I'm not in the dark. But I don't have to be a software developer to be a good program manager. Right, yeah. And a lot of times when you see people ask for a CIO or a CTO, If you read the job description, two lines down, they'll say, must be able to code. Why? I've never been able. I hated coding in college. Hated it. I knew right then I ain't gonna be no developer or programmer. You know, that's not client facing. I like the people side of things. I'm not going to be locked behind a door on a computer coding. And sliding the answer to world hunger under the door and never meeting the people I feed.

Dr. Shay: 39:33

Right. I mean, it's so funny. You know, my partner always says, too, like he has a similar philosophy where it's like he's a leader who knows how to get the right people in order to do the job.

James Bumpas: 39:46

Yes. Resourcefulness. To me, that's a good CEO. You don't have to know everything. Like to me, you don't have to know everything. You just need to know the right people. You need to know where to go to get the answer. Like when I was an intelligence specialist, the admirals and the colonels, they admired me because one or two things happened. Either I had the answer or I knew how to get the answer. How to get it. And I followed up. We had intelligent analysts who would not follow up Dr. Nishay. They would say the right words in the briefing. but they would not go get the response and follow up. And they made the leader ask again. I never did. I was the king of follow up. So that taught me how to be truly resourceful and close any open doors or any gaps. Like if there was a boss that needed information to make a good decision, I made sure they had it.

Dr. Shay: 40:42

You know, everything you're saying is just, I think, providing the definition that separates leadership management and leadership. I think there's an assumption all the time that people in management are natural leaders and that's rarely the case. So many people are in management positions who were never taught any leadership skills or don't have it innately.

James Bumpas: 41:04

Yeah. I'm glad you said that because I always look at management like tasks and leadership about people.

Dr. Shay: 41:11

I like that. I like that. Absolutely.

James Bumpas: 41:14

I just find it that people who are proud managers they go right past the people and ask, what tasks are you doing? So that they can micromanage the tasks. So to me, a leader will ask, what are your obstacles and what are your impediments and what do you need for me? But a micromanager or a manager will say, what are you doing today? And start trying to get into the weeds. Yeah. Oof, that's taken me to a dark place.

Dr. Shay: 41:53

But wow, okay, that's amazing. Remind us again, what's the name of your book? Because you mentioned it a couple of times.

James Bumpas: 41:59

Yeah, the title of the book is called Triumph in the Trenches, Navigating Success for Black Professionals. And I had the pleasure of not only submitting and authoring a chapter in that book, Dr. Nishay, I had an opportunity to partner with the publisher, and marketing manager, Ilona Washington, who is local here. She's an indie publisher. Amazing lady. Look her up if you ever want to write a book. I recommend her highly to everybody, but she's a superstar. But I also helped her edit. Thanks to my background in intelligence and being an avid reader, I had never written a book, but I've written a lot. And so I was able to contribute by helping a lot of the other authors properly tell their stories. story in a way to help us expedite and get published on time for Black History Year Before Last. And so it was extremely powerful to do that and This book resonated with so many people, allies included, of all ethnicities, which was powerful. Matter of fact, Australia is treating it as a reference for anti-race campaigns, and that's powerful. We had Black people from Australia, UK, and all over the US. It wound up being, at the end, 22 of us who contributed to the book. I say it was divine. They just finished a second chapter. I opted out. I was going to write a chapter about leadership in the military, to your point. Yeah, I opted out for that second volume because I had so much going on. I was burning a candle at both ends with my day job and my consulting with my business that I felt like adding a third thing at the time was more about wanting to be a people pleaser for the other authors and not necessarily for myself. So I backed out.

Dr. Shay: 43:56

Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, yeah. Thank you so much for telling us about that. I can't wait for your next book that comes out. Can you let everyone know where to follow you in your work?

James Bumpas: 44:06

Yeah, yeah. So I am on LinkedIn. I am on, and I will share the link with you, but I am on LinkedIn and my website is btstriumphwithjames.com. And don't hesitate to reach out to me. All my contact information is listed on my website, including the services that I offer. Again, I do leadership development, coaching, professional speaking, and IT program and project management. So I'm excited to partner with you, Dr. to Shay to get the word out that, you know, we in this thing, we doing it. So thank you so much for this time and sharing your platform with me. And I look forward to the next time we have a chance for a great conversation.

Dr. Shay: 44:49

Me too. Thank you so much.

James Bumpas: 44:51

Thank you.

Dr. Shay: 44:51

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